GRIPES

octave

Well-Known Member
now iv seen enough information about the 5G smart meters that most of us have installed in our homes
My understanding is that 5G is nor used yet and will be switched on early this year 2019.

i decided to buy a electromagnetic radiation meter as this is what pumps out of them 24/7 365 days a year, this is definatly the reason why we always feel like **** and this needs to be ripped out of my house regardless now iv checked it, the meter is telling me that this is harmful, "
I would be interested to know what meter you are using and what specific frequencies you are detecting?

this is what pumps out of them 24/7 365 days a year
No it is not pumping out signals 24/7 but rather it sends extremely short pulses of information out several times a day.

"Smart Meters typically send bursts of data, lasting a fraction of a second, at intervals of minutes or hours. Lots of different figures are quoted for the overall fraction of time Smart Meters transmit for - the duty cycle - and this is partly because meters are used in different ways by different utilities. Figures of less than 1%, or even 0.1% or 0.01%, have been found in many situations, and it seems safe to assume that virtually all Smart Meters stay below 5%. As smart grids are developed, it seems likely communication with individual meters will be more frequent and duty cycles will increase. But much of this would be for extra services which were at the customer's choice.
Some remote reading meters don't send data to a central point, instead they send out information continuously every second or two, to enable the signal to be picked up by meter-reading equipment when driving along the street. But a typical data-transmitting pulse would be 6 ms long, still giving a duty cycle of less than 1%."




"Communication outside the home - the WAN
  • Some Smart Meters use the existing mobile-phone systems, where each Smart Meter contains the transmitting bit of a mobile phone, and communicates with the nearest base station when it needs to.
  • Others use a radio signal to send information to a collecting point, which collects the information for a few thousand or tens of thousand homes and sends it to the electricity company. These systems do not actually use mobile phones or mobile-phone base stations, but because the communication requirements are similar, they use fairly similar frequencies (hundreds of MHz) and powers (up to perhaps 1 W) to mobile phones.
  • Still others use a "mesh" system, where information is sent from one Smart Meter to another, and the information is only sent to the electricity company (either from one particular Smart Meter or from a separate data aggregation point) once for every few hundred homes. That radio signal is usually around 900 MHz, close to the frequency of many mobile phones, with a maximum power of 1 W, though as the range required from one meter to the next is lower, the power may be lower.
  • Other systems are also possible, using satellites, power line communications or fibre optics.

Communication inside the home - the HAN"

  • Inside the home, Smart Meters usually use wireless signals at 2.4 GHz, with a maximum power of less than 1 W. This is a similar frequency to several existing wireless technologies - WiFi, Bluetooth and ZigBee for example. Some Smart Meters use the actual ZigBee system, and powers may be significantly less than 1 W.
How big are the fields?
A 1 W radio transmitter basically produces the same radio frequency signal strength no matter whether it is being used for a mobile phone, a smart meter, or any other technology. A person's exposure from it will depend on the actual power, how close they get to it, and (for average exposure) the duty cycle, that is, how often it actually transmits for.

RF EMFs are often characterised by the power density rather than by the strength of the electric or magnetic field. The following table gives some typical values for various situations.

A 1 W radio transmitter basically produces the same radio frequency signal strength no matter whether it is being used for a mobile phone, a smart meter, or any other technology. A person's exposure from it will depend on the actual power, how close they get to it, and (for average exposure) the duty cycle, that is, how often it actually transmits for.

RF EMFs are often characterised by the power density rather than by the strength of the electric or magnetic field. The following table gives some typical values for various situations.


Power Density
mW / m2
mobile phone, held close to ear, during call
(but when the phone is this close to the body, measuring the power density is of limited use)
10,000 - 50,000​
mobile phone base station, at typical distances of 10-1000 m
0.05 - 30​
microwave oven, producing maximum permitted leakage radiation, 30 cm from door
10,000​
WiFi computer, 1 m away, when transmitting
0.05 - 2​
radio and TV broadcast signals
0.05 - 10​
US-style Smart Meter, transmitting data in mesh mode to other local meters, whilst transmitting
100 - 400 (1 m away)
10 - 40 (3 m away)​
US-style Smart Meter, transmitting data in mesh mode to other local meters, average over 1% duty cycle
1 - 4 (1 m away)
0.1 - 0.4 (3 m away)​
ICNIRP Guidelines reference level for comparison
5000 - 10,000
(varies with frequency)

Given the low power compared to other household sources and the extremely brief transmissions and also given the fact that the frequency is very similar to your household wifi I would be more worried about your household wifi and mobile phone exposure.

source:Smart meters - RationalWiki
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
When the power grid is attached to your house, Often the adjacent room is a bedroom !.
Smart meters are normally attached to the power-box itself,
Possibly only a "dry-wall" (plasterboard) between their bed head & power meter,
Less the 1/2 a metre.
Most houses in our street.
spacesailor
 

octave

Well-Known Member
When the power grid is attached to your house, Often the adjacent room is a bedroom !.
Smart meters are normally attached to the power-box itself,
Possibly only a "dry-wall" (plasterboard) between their bed head & power meter,
Less the 1/2 a metre.
Most houses in our street.
spacesailor
Space if you read the link I posted you will see that smart meters do not transmit all the time in fact for only seconds a day. The power that it transmits this data at is much lower than other sources like your wifi, your phone your microwave even your electric blanket. My question would be why are you more concerned sources of RF that are more constant and at a much higher level?

Even if you don't want to read the report I have linked to just scan through a little. It is extremely thorough, it measures meters though different structures as well as right next to the meter.

Smart Meters - AMI Meter EM Field Survey Report


.
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
Octave
I was just making the comment (enlightenment) Of the fact that Even tho we live with All the Radiation ! WE can switch off our end, Phones/Wi fi And my favourite electric blanket.Before jumping between the sheets.
But That meter is not selectable by us. It works in the background & does it's thing, & we Have to put up with Any radiation it produces.
Does the power company select a particular time to send its meter-message, or can that transmission zap through the air when only a FOOT from my head ?,
when asleep.
spacesailor
 

octave

Well-Known Member
Does the power company select a particular time to send its meter-message, or can that transmission zap through the air when only a FOOT from my head ?
when asleep.
How does the level of power used to transmit data from your meter compare to other sources? I am assuming that you have wifi in your house. I would suspect that your neighbours have wifi as you would be able to see by when your mobile phone or other device searches for a network. Walk down any city street and you are walking through any number of wifi networks.
The point is that you are anxious about this one source even though it is one of the smaller sources of RF. It is up to you what you are anxious about but it does pay to put these things in perspective in order to live a happy life.

Looking at my electricity account I can check the power usage throughout the day and throughout the billing cycle. I recently got emailed to me a mid-bill period report which points out that my fridge has used 42% more power than this time last year, I suspect the thermostat may need to be replaced but at least I know. Also, I may have a look at standby and hot water as ways to save.

Anyway, I am happy with new technology and if I have any doubts I do my research from reputable sources. Of all the things that might lead to my premature death, I think the 2 bottles of wine I drink a week or the 4 or 5 extra kilos I could afford to lose are much more important than any source of RF that is FAR SMALLER than other sources that we do not have a choice about.
power.jpg
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
But It is the only one we Don't control.
"The point is that you are anxious about this one source even though it is one of the smaller sources of RF."
My sister's in the UK Was too use Her own Wi fi. But as it was over a couple of metre's away, it failed to make a secure connection.
My only experience with Smart meters.
spacesailor
 

Phil Perry

Well-Known Member
Octave, are you in any way defending the ethos behind the installation of these Meters worldwide, other than countering certain aspects of their technology. ?

This is definitely FINANCIALLY detrimentaL to the end user,. . .and following deeper investigation as to the reasons for their rapid installation throughout the UK and the USA, one has to wonder about the REAL reason for the worldwide installation campaign.. . other than Massive Profits and More Remote digital control of the population ? What is terribly wrong with the Old systems ? Not Profitable enough ?

No cynical view at all ?
 

facthunter

Well-Known Member
IF it's all in the open, and understood it's one of the best ways to stabilize the grid. IF you let them turn off your power you elect which circuits are exposed to that and what time and duration, if it's done properly. and you get a reduced power bill for so doing, or it would cost more if you don't (which amounts to the same thing). That stops the need to black out entire areas without warning, which is the other alternative when the grid is not stable. The grid is not like a car battery where you just turn things on and off. You have to constantly balance input with demand or you get under or overvolting and frequency (Hertz 50/sec) changes which make the grid unstable and increase transmission losses. If it's out of synch, it fights itself with alternating current (back EMF) if you hook something else to it with an input. Nev.
 

nomadpete

Well-Known Member
Nev, I'm pretty sure that smart metres have no ability to influence grid stability. Grid stability is controlled at the high voltage transmission level. I worked with this stuff for many years.
Furthermore, unless the consumers all rewire their meter boxes, there is no way they can remotely switch part of a consumers circuits off. With the exception of 'off peak' hot water heaters that already have provision for remote control.
These new wireless connected meters are just a step towards lowering the cost of meter reading (and billing). Whether these savings get passed on to the consumer or not, is open to conjecture.
 

octave

Well-Known Member
Octave, are you in any way defending the ethos behind the installation of these Meters worldwide, other than countering certain aspects of their technology. ?

This is definitely FINANCIALLY detrimentaL to the end user,. . .and following deeper investigation as to the reasons for their rapid installation throughout the UK and the USA, one has to wonder about the REAL reason for the worldwide installation campaign.. . other than Massive Profits and More Remote digital control of the population ? What is terribly wrong with the Old systems ? Not Profitable enough ?

No cynical view at all ?
So far I have not really expressed an opinion as to the ethos behind smart meters. I presume you are asking me that because you want to draw me into a debate on your wider beliefs. OK, I will bite.

When you say the ethos I am guessing what you mean is what you and some other folks have pronounced as the ethos. An important step in the presentation of any conspiracy hypothesis.

I watched most of the videos you posted and did not find them particularly persuasive. Here are just a few points.

Smart meters are not compulsory in Britain at least (according to the clip) and you can request for it to be removed. Phil if I were you I would be putting my energy into ensuring that it remains an opt-in system. I believe they are mandated here in Victoria.

Cost - I can't really comment on installation cost (unless I do a bit of research). I bought a property with a pre-existing smart meter. I moved from a similar sized property with an analogue meter, my bills are around about the same or slightly lower. I can only comment about my own costs but they do not seem to have been adversely affected. Of course, the consumer does bear the cost of any innovation or upgrade to the network. Want a new power station? The cost will be born by the end users.

Accuracy. I can't find much reliable information on this. I believe just like the petrol pump that there are standards imposed and they are tested (sometimes beside analogue meters). Of course, I do not rule out the fact that a meter could malfunction as with any technology (including analogue) however at least I can and in fact do look at the graph of my energy usage on a daily or even an hourly basis. If I find a larger usage that does not tally with my actual usage I can see this almost instantly and tackle the power company before I am sent a huge bill.

The power company can charge different amounts at different times of the day. We have kind of had this for a long time if you have off-peak power. The clip presents this as they can charge more for power at peak times but then you could also say of that it's charging less for power at low usage times. The benefit, of course, is using more power when power stations are underutilized (overnight). As you can see from the energy report I posted a few messages back 59% of my usage is hot water. I do not have variable priced power but I can see it would be worth it for me to investigate off-peak hot water since it is by far my biggest energy usage.

Control and cut off. The clip says that to cut someone off with an analogue meter requires someone to visit your property and it refers to it as a legal process. I fail to see why a legal process cannot be mandatory for any cutoff regardless of where the actual switch is flicked.

Privacy: Whilst it is important to consider the privacy implications of all technology it is so easy to slip into hysteria. I have no fear of anyone knowing my shower routine. Last night I watched episode 1 and 2 of the 2nd series of Line of Duty. Whilst it may be technically possible for my power company to detect this fact I am assuming that it would be a lot of work for pretty much no gain. I guess if they were interested they would probably find it easier to do a deal with Netflix and while they are at it. This risk seems ludicrously small compared to using the internet.

The clip seems to start out saying that power companies could potentially sell data but then slips into they are selling data. Is there proof of this? In Victoria, it is governed by the privacy act. Smart Meters - Privacy I have not read this document so I can't really comment on it. I do get rather bemused about how precious people are about certain types of privacy. Being advertised to is just how the system works. I would much rather get ads that are targeted than untargeted.

It is interesting that people seem more concerned about somebody hacking the system and determining when there may be nobody home in particular premises rather than a stranger (meter reader) having access to your property. Of course, it need not be the actual meter reader, it could also be the guy dressed in a yellow safety vest going door to door. My mobile phone could provide information that not only verifies that I am not home but exactly where I am and therefore when I might return.


In terms of hacking, of course, it is true that we need to consider the implications of new technology. It is also true that we cannot always foresee the negatives and also the positives of new technologies. The only way to guarantee 100% that no technology will be hacked would be to return to mid to late last century.



If you look back at the introduction of new technologies there has usually been a section of the community that has been anxious or suspicious. Look at mobile phones with early health concerns and privacy concerns, that is not to say that we should not consider the downsides but we need to stay rational.
 

octave

Well-Known Member
Here is an interesting interview with the director of the national grid in the UK.


Phil the controller of the grid needs to ensure that the amount of power generated is as close to the power being used as possible. This is a difficult balancing act. You definitely do not want to have power stations generating surplus power unless you can store it.

Some interesting points made by the controller @8:30 - "for us, it is all about the data" ...... "it is where we don't have data that we get into problems"

@ 10:14 he briefly mentions smart meters.

The controller uses the historical data to ensure that enough generation is brought online so we don't have power cuts but also are not wasting money by generating excess power.

Anyway whether or not you think smart meters are driven by some sort of conspiracy or not this is a pretty interesting insight into the power system that we tend to take for granted.
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
"Furthermore, unless the consumers all rewire their meter boxes, there is no way they can remotely switch part of a consumers circuits off. With the exception of 'off peak' hot water heaters that already have provision for remote control."
Two items here
1/ From personal experience My OFF PEAK heating was turned off for (wait for it) .....Night-store...
Three weeks yes 21 day's in the dead of winter with No heating at all, Standard power was Off four hours daily. (water in flower vase froze)
I ended up Buying 2 Kero heaters, (like the fifties & sixties( in NZ))
2/ When selective "switch-off Comes I very much doubt if it will hit Canberra at ALL.
Individuals CAN & WILL be selected NOT randomly.
But by their STATUS !.
How can a Meter, tell which plug is in use at any time let alone How much power, ONE in a dozen plugs is using.
Unless Every plug & appliance has a separate Feed plus Fuse .
All the people known to me. that have put solar on their roofs, had to have a "smart meter" and ended up paying a higher tariff, than when on the old meter.
I WANT "stand alone" With my old tariff.
spacesailor


spacesailor
 

Marty_d

Well-Known Member
So far I have not really expressed an opinion as to the ethos behind smart meters. I presume you are asking me that because you want to draw me into a debate on your wider beliefs. OK, I will bite.

When you say the ethos I am guessing what you mean is what you and some other folks have pronounced as the ethos. An important step in the presentation of any conspiracy hypothesis.

I watched most of the videos you posted and did not find them particularly persuasive. Here are just a few points.

Smart meters are not compulsory in Britain at least (according to the clip) and you can request for it to be removed. Phil if I were you I would be putting my energy into ensuring that it remains an opt-in system. I believe they are mandated here in Victoria.

Cost - I can't really comment on installation cost (unless I do a bit of research). I bought a property with a pre-existing smart meter. I moved from a similar sized property with an analogue meter, my bills are around about the same or slightly lower. I can only comment about my own costs but they do not seem to have been adversely affected. Of course, the consumer does bear the cost of any innovation or upgrade to the network. Want a new power station? The cost will be born by the end users.

Accuracy. I can't find much reliable information on this. I believe just like the petrol pump that there are standards imposed and they are tested (sometimes beside analogue meters). Of course, I do not rule out the fact that a meter could malfunction as with any technology (including analogue) however at least I can and in fact do look at the graph of my energy usage on a daily or even an hourly basis. If I find a larger usage that does not tally with my actual usage I can see this almost instantly and tackle the power company before I am sent a huge bill.

The power company can charge different amounts at different times of the day. We have kind of had this for a long time if you have off-peak power. The clip presents this as they can charge more for power at peak times but then you could also say of that it's charging less for power at low usage times. The benefit, of course, is using more power when power stations are underutilized (overnight). As you can see from the energy report I posted a few messages back 59% of my usage is hot water. I do not have variable priced power but I can see it would be worth it for me to investigate off-peak hot water since it is by far my biggest energy usage.

Control and cut off. The clip says that to cut someone off with an analogue meter requires someone to visit your property and it refers to it as a legal process. I fail to see why a legal process cannot be mandatory for any cutoff regardless of where the actual switch is flicked.

Privacy: Whilst it is important to consider the privacy implications of all technology it is so easy to slip into hysteria. I have no fear of anyone knowing my shower routine. Last night I watched episode 1 and 2 of the 2nd series of Line of Duty. Whilst it may be technically possible for my power company to detect this fact I am assuming that it would be a lot of work for pretty much no gain. I guess if they were interested they would probably find it easier to do a deal with Netflix and while they are at it. This risk seems ludicrously small compared to using the internet.

The clip seems to start out saying that power companies could potentially sell data but then slips into they are selling data. Is there proof of this? In Victoria, it is governed by the privacy act. Smart Meters - Privacy I have not read this document so I can't really comment on it. I do get rather bemused about how precious people are about certain types of privacy. Being advertised to is just how the system works. I would much rather get ads that are targeted than untargeted.

It is interesting that people seem more concerned about somebody hacking the system and determining when there may be nobody home in particular premises rather than a stranger (meter reader) having access to your property. Of course, it need not be the actual meter reader, it could also be the guy dressed in a yellow safety vest going door to door. My mobile phone could provide information that not only verifies that I am not home but exactly where I am and therefore when I might return.


In terms of hacking, of course, it is true that we need to consider the implications of new technology. It is also true that we cannot always foresee the negatives and also the positives of new technologies. The only way to guarantee 100% that no technology will be hacked would be to return to mid to late last century.



If you look back at the introduction of new technologies there has usually been a section of the community that has been anxious or suspicious. Look at mobile phones with early health concerns and privacy concerns, that is not to say that we should not consider the downsides but we need to stay rational.
Bloody hell, Octave, there you go again using that damn LOGIC stuff...
 

kgwilson

Active Member
The biggest most intense source of electromagnetic radiation is the sun at around 1.37 kW per square metre in the upper atmosphere. This gets filtered by the atmosphere but most gets to us. Mobile phones & wifi use specific sets of EMF frequencies at extemely low intensity. A few minutes in the sun & you will have more exposure to EMF than all of your wi-fi and mobile phone use for a month, probably more.
 

kgwilson

Active Member
Your eyes tell you that the Sun obviously delivers energy to Earth in the form of visible light. If you think about it a bit, especially in terms of the choices you make about UV-A and UV-B protection when you shop for sunscreen or sunglasses, you'll also realise that you know that the Sun also bathes our planet in ultraviolet "light" or radiation. The Sun, in fact, emits radiation across most of the electromagnetic spectrum... from high-energy X-rays to ultra-long wavelength radio waves.

If you think it is all good for us wander round in the summer sun naked for a day & let us know the result.
 

spacesailor

Well-Known Member
K G
It will get you "Free Bed & Board" When the boy's in blue pick you up.
Tens of thousands of "cell" phones & hundreds of towers pumping out all simultaneously, ( still transmitting when not in use, searching for adjacent tower )
Adds up to more than a couple of Whats ( that you say).
spacesailor
 

Marty_d

Well-Known Member
Like anything in life, moderation will help you stay alive.

There's been huge concern about radiation from mobile phones causing brain cancer because you hold the headset against your ear. However reputable studies show over and over that there's no significant increase in risk.

My wife was out in the sun for no longer than 5 minutes today and got sunburn. That big ball of radiation will kill you far quicker than cell phone towers.

Ask any astronaut what the biggest risk is in space (not the getting there or getting back, but while you're up) - I bet they say being caught in an unshielded part of the ship when there's a solar flare. Earth's magnetic field and atmosphere deflect a sh*tload of radiation all over the spectrum that would kill everything on the surface otherwise.
 

nomadpete

Well-Known Member
Sorry guys, I was only joking.

I have a close friend who is all "natural is best!" About everything.
When she visited our house, she was immediately (well, immediately after telling us how we stuffed up the Feng Shui of our home), concerned about the health hazard posed by radiation from nearby HV power lines. We look down on this nearby feeder as our house was on a knoll overlooking them. Luckily she relaxed when I explained that they can't harm us because we're above the wires!
Logic? Not likely.
Maybe the only good thing about natural radiation is that it might have promoted genetic deformities that allowed evolution to occur.
 
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